Having read recent comments concerning persons running on footpaths etc, I want to reiterate a comment I made after the SDCC race.


At this race I was both annoyed and disappointed in equal measure to witness some BHAA runners gain a definate and unjust advantage by running on tarmacadam footpaths to avoid the very heavy and testing conditions underfoot. I also observed competitors running inside course markers for the same reason. In my opinion such deliberate actions violate the very ethos at the core of cross country racing. It's not so long ago that a now infamous Frenchman was castigated by the Irish public and international media for a deliberate act(s) designed to gain an unfair advantage. I'm not suggesting these incidents are of equal magnitude, but the principles involved are equal. I agree that on occassion one must cross a tarmacadam pathway as dictated by the course design, but to pass other competitors as they toil in the mud, and thereby later be offically recorded as finishing ahead of others who abided by the rules and "principles of fair play" is dishonest and merits disqualification in my opinion.

Quote by: Anto M

Having read recent comments concerning persons running on footpaths etc, I want to reiterate a comment I made after the SDCC race.


At this race I was both annoyed and disappointed in equal measure to witness some BHAA runners gain a definate and unjust advantage by running on tarmacadam footpaths to avoid the very heavy and testing conditions underfoot. I also observed competitors running inside course markers for the same reason. In my opinion such deliberate actions violate the very ethos at the core of cross country racing. It's not so long ago that a now infamous Frenchman was castigated by the Irish public and international media for a deliberate act(s) designed to gain an unfair advantage. I'm not suggesting these incidents are of equal magnitude, but the principles involved are equal. I agree that on occassion one must cross a tarmacadam pathway as dictated by the course design, but to pass other competitors as they toil in the mud, and thereby later be offically recorded as finishing ahead of others who abided by the rules and "principles of fair play" is dishonest and merits disqualification in my opinion.

I agree fully with what you are saying (With the exception of the Henry equation !), but it seems from a previous thread that some runners belive this is not really an issue.
Quite frankly I find the silence from the BHAA Officials on this issue somewhat strange, to say the least ?. Why can we not have a clear directive, rule clarification, or something similar from BHAA Officials to eradicate this continuing practice. Having witnessed this myself last Saturday I'm pretty sure (But can't be 100%) that those who succumbed to this dreadful practice were not regular BHAA runners, so perhaps were chancing their arm knowing they wouldn't be paticipating in future races ?. If we had a clear directive at least we'd know what the definitive is, rather than the murky situation at the moment where, perhaps, what these people are doing is actually O.K or maybe completely breaking the rules. For my last tuppence worth on this, if these are regular runners with BHAA I honestly don't know how they could look a fellow runner in the face after doing such a dishonest act like this knowing that their colleagues have run the race in the spirit it was meant to be run it and haven't looked for slimey advantage like this.

Folks - a cross country race is exactly that - cross country -it can cover all type of terrain - grass, hills, water, open, flat and tarmacaden ground!! Providing no-one was taking a short cut I cant see any problem. As for tape to run inside - I didn't see much of it about. it relation to getting an advantage by running on the tar path i have to agree with the comment in the other forum that states that you wont get an advantage running in spikes on it. Maybe some runners was just stronger and wanted to get past other runners??!!

Anyway - we are all adults just enjoy the running and achieving your own personal goals. it not like anyone is going to the Olympics.

Quote by: subbuteoProviding no-one was taking a short cut I cant see any problem. ]

But avoiding the bales of hay by going the long way round wouldn't be a short cut either, but it would also not be in the spirit of the event. Following the marked course is what is expected and whatever that may then take your through, round or over, A tarmac path is not part of the course, other than where we have to cross over them, and often mats are put down due to the majority of people wearing spikes. It's perfectly fine to run a cross country course without spikes on, but you still need to run the same course as everyone else, through whatever conditions it may take you.

Quote by: Hitthewall

Quote by: Anto M

Having read recent comments concerning persons running on footpaths etc, I want to reiterate a comment I made after the SDCC race.


At this race I was both annoyed and disappointed in equal measure to witness some BHAA runners gain a definate and unjust advantage by running on tarmacadam footpaths to avoid the very heavy and testing conditions underfoot. I also observed competitors running inside course markers for the same reason. In my opinion such deliberate actions violate the very ethos at the core of cross country racing. It's not so long ago that a now infamous Frenchman was castigated by the Irish public and international media for a deliberate act(s) designed to gain an unfair advantage. I'm not suggesting these incidents are of equal magnitude, but the principles involved are equal. I agree that on occassion one must cross a tarmacadam pathway as dictated by the course design, but to pass other competitors as they toil in the mud, and thereby later be offically recorded as finishing ahead of others who abided by the rules and "principles of fair play" is dishonest and merits disqualification in my opinion.

I agree fully with what you are saying (With the exception of the Henry equation !), but it seems from a previous thread that some runners belive this is not really an issue.
Quite frankly I find the silence from the BHAA Officials on this issue somewhat strange, to say the least ?. Why can we not have a clear directive, rule clarification, or something similar from BHAA Officials to eradicate this continuing practice. Having witnessed this myself last Saturday I'm pretty sure (But can't be 100%) that those who succumbed to this dreadful practice were not regular BHAA runners, so perhaps were chancing their arm knowing they wouldn't be paticipating in future races ?. If we had a clear directive at least we'd know what the definitive is, rather than the murky situation at the moment where, perhaps, what these people are doing is actually O.K or maybe completely breaking the rules. For my last tuppence worth on this, if these are regular runners with BHAA I honestly don't know how they could look a fellow runner in the face after doing such a dishonest act like this knowing that their colleagues have run the race in the spirit it was meant to be run it and haven't looked for slimey advantage like this.

It may be remembered that although a race is run under BHAA rules it is not a closed event: there are many non-BHAA day members at each event. (The Swords event was great insofar as there were people from beyond the expected 'commuter belt' towns of Navan and Drogheda and many places that wouldn't always have had much of a presence at other BHAA events. If it helps grow the appeal of cross country then obviously whilst it shouldn't be at the expense of fairness to BHAA members, there may occasionally be a learning curve for some participants to overcome). In terms of 'silence' of BHAA "Officials" it may be remembered that race organisers (in this case the NCF, in the previous race eircom) and the BHAA volunteers have a range of respective responsibilities in terms of ensuring that a course is marked, measured, that registration facilities are there beforehand and that results are processed thereafter for individual prizes, categories, team prizes etc etc. It is open to BHAA members to report anything that does not come to the attention of the race organisers or the BHAA volunteers.

An announcement could perhaps be made at the start of each race but that'd require race organisers to then divert volunteers to any particular stretch of the course to monitor a location at which there is a prospect of unfair advantage accruing to a runner for a certain distance. (At a pragmatic level I'd imagine that it'd be inevitable that those wearing runners then lose this notional advantage when back in the mud on other stretches of the course). If it's any consolation there'll be little/no footpath at any of the next 3 races.

Based on feedback from runners, we have suggested to race organisers after the SDCC race that the loud speaker should be used to inform runners of issues with each specific course. In an attempt to avoid any future incidents perhaps we can be clearer and reiterate the simple message that "paths are out of bounds" prior to start of any XC race.

Quote by: poconnell

Based on feedback from runners, we have suggested to race organisers after the SDCC race that the loud speaker should be used to inform runners of issues with each specific course. In an attempt to avoid any future incidents perhaps we can be clearer and reiterate the simple message that "paths are out of bounds" prior to start of any XC race.

Well now that clears it up once and for all, NO RUNNING ON PATHS IN XC RACES, now lets not leave it solely to the organisers. If runners see other runners running on paths lets let them know that they are "Out of Bounds". But this shouldn't be necessary if issues about any particular race are announced on the PA before the race, but to always re-iterarte the paths issue where they are adjacent to any XC course. One other issue, as someone who normally doesn't be in the first line of runners at the start line, it is practically impossible to hear instructions from the starter when they don't have a hand held Microphone. Would it be possible to get this to all starters so instructions can be heard by ALL the runners at the start line ?.

I have found the comments about running on tarmac paths to be interesting. I did not run the race on Saturday but I have run the race several times and have trained there many times so I know the path.

I believe there are two questions regarding the course. Is the tarmac path open to run on? Do I run on the path or the grass/country.If the path was open it is part of the course unless it was taped off.
I would stick to the grass but would not rule out taking the path if I believed it to be the right option at the time
If a runner goes on the path it wouldn't bother me as long as they run the full distance.
The majority of people who turn up and enter races are running just to get around in a reasonable time and to use words as "dishonest" and "disqualification" is taking this issue to an extreme.
There is no rule to dictate what part of a course you can or can't run on. You just follow the course that has been marked out.

If people believe that it is such a serious issue it should be raised with the race promotor who is responsible for the marking of the course.


Derek

Quote by: Derek

I have found the comments about running on tarmac paths to be interesting. I did not run the race on Saturday but I have run the race several times and have trained there many times so I know the path.

I believe there are two questions regarding the course. Is the tarmac path open to run on? Do I run on the path or the grass/country.If the path was open it is part of the course unless it was taped off.
I would stick to the grass but would not rule out taking the path if I believed it to be the right option at the time
If a runner goes on the path it wouldn't bother me as long as they run the full distance.
The majority of people who turn up and enter races are running just to get around in a reasonable time and to use words as "dishonest" and "disqualification" is taking this issue to an extreme.
There is no rule to dictate what part of a course you can or can't run on. You just follow the course that has been marked out.

If people believe that it is such a serious issue it should be raised with the race promotor who is responsible for the marking of the course.


Derek

Derek, I presume you are having a laugh ! "If the path was open it is part of the course unless it was taped off". Last weeks 5 miler was 3 laps, so are you seriously suggesting that the full circuit should be taped off ??!!!. If you do, then that means taping both sides of the track you are talking about over 3miles of tape !!!!!. This is a voluntry organisation, if you want to run in these type of races then maybe you should register with the IAAF rather than BHAA !! Look, admin have given a clear enough directive "Paths are Out of Bounds in XC Races" now I don't think this can be any clearer. And whether or not you think it's dishonest I certainly do and at a minimum it's ceratinly not in keeping with the spirit of the race. How in gods name can you justify someone sprinting down a tarmac path passing runners thrudging through the muck, runners who know what is meant by sticking to the spirit of the race and not trying to slither their way around looking for any unfair advantage that they can get. Why would you bother doing this ???


In relation to.."There is no rule to dictate what part of a course you can or can't run on" again I presume you are joking here ?!. If Admin states that the Paths are Out of Bounds that means you CAN'T run on them in XC Races.

Now lets get on with it and play by the BHAA Rules "Paths are Out of Bounds", and if there are a few who want to challenge this during the race then they will have to accept any consequences that may result from running on an area thet is deemed " Out of Bounds". Again please give the starter a handheld microphone so that local issues can be outlined and running on the paths are banned.

Hithewall,
I respect you views and understand that this issue is important but the practicalities of following a" directive" and saying that a path is out of bounds over the PA is not going to solve the problem. I have run th SDCC race many times over the last 20 years and some people run on the path for a bit but as it is on a direct line to the next part of the course but most people run on the grass and may cross the path.
I did not suggest taping the whole course .
My point about taping the NCF course was only in reference to the path which I believe you could keep runners to the the left of by taping some of this section and then allowing them to cross the path as they head back towards the main field.
I was to involved in organising BHAA races both cross country and road for over 20 years so I am very aware of the voluntary nature of these races.
Perhaps a word in the ear of the "offenders" might help!